Stable version having E16?

That could make sense, as the e16 version wouldn't have many major upgrades...just the occasional backport or debian upgrade etc...so we could go the way of ZORK and just have one number. And it would be pretty cool to do it in roman numerals :madness:

OK! Debian will probably move out soon - I'm expecting it'll be our little Christmas gift.

As a result of this, we should snapshot all our progress, and name it, as @triantares suggested in another thread "Elive Retro* 2020.11" (he suggested 2020.06 but that was June), or as @eliver suggested, version III.

I'd suggest if we use III then also have another version inside, like III.1 or something.

Anyway, we should move out to Bullseye/E24 ASAP because otherwise it'll take even -longer- to get 4.0.

mentions: @triantares, @rbrick49, @eliver, @Thanatermesis

*In this thread, triantares was against it, but he said later, he'd be fine with it if we fixed those old programs for modern E16 like elpanel, which I might do once I learn the EFLs, once I figure out if they're on github :work:

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Well, looking through the distrowatch reviews and youtube reviews, the beta version using e16 is getting a lot of criticism. We should move out to e24 and keep e16 as a special version asap.

image

Well that was the idea ....... keep E16 as a "retro" version and move on to E24.

Somehow this is getting lost somewhere albeit I do have the impression that there is work being done on E24 for Elive lately.
Alas E24 still has some serious issues but then so does have E16. :thinking:

Yes, that's what I meant. I was just saying ASAP

E16 has less issues but we're trading in user experience for that. While E16 is a good DE, it's not good enough for some people. Most of us can live with it, but the users just want a good interface. And right now, the betas don't qualify as betas - they're too stable! :madness:

Most linuxers know that betas are unstable, so that wouldn't be too much of an issue. However, I'd still probably add "(preview/unstable build)" to the end of the title, just for those Windoze users. :smile_cat:

Since Elive supports both types of desktops (this means: e16 on its own way of work, and e17 or e24+ or whatever is not ready on the beta versions at the moment), we need them to work correctly on both desktops (this means, most of things may not work on e24 or may be not needed because e24 has its own tools for them, but for e24 of course thats a deeper research job)

Especially if we are going to have a "stated stable" version of Elive based on E16 instead of E2+ (this is another issue @triantares , we always used e16 for the beta versions as "beta environment", how to say now Stable E2+ and Stable E16 ? :thinking: this can sound very confusing for the users... (ok the e16 snapshot is offtopic on this thread, i just meant that we need the desktop to work correctly with the needed features, like keyboard switching, on both environments)

yeah that's my entire point

and yes, we love (me too) e16, but is not the best for what Elive is meant to be

those who don't know what im talking about, just install Elive 3.0 Stable and compare :slight_smile:

OMG another thread talking about a stable version of Elive with E16 :rofl2:

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Exactly: Stable is E17 !!!!

I don't really watch or read all reviews on the net and certainly not those on distrowatch. That's a fairly sado masochistic pastime that leads to nothing,IMHO.
If the complainers stop complaining there, you can be certain your distro will be exactly the same as and inter-changeable with all the others.....meaning EOL after a while.

As I've stated quite often ..... E16 can be morphed into anything we want it to be (like anything enlightenment based), we only need to envision what it should look like.

E16 is what sets Elive Retro (I'll try to stop using Beta combined with E16 too) apart from the others.
E24 in it's current state isn't gob smacking good or pretty and certainly will need a lot of tweaking (once stable) to come even close to the E17 on Stable 3.

So I'm all for a maintained Retro E16 fork that moves along parallel to Beta E24 development, only gaining those additions and upgrades that make sense for E16.
A bit like how Red Hat and Fedora live together.

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hallelujah. Have been using the e16 version since available. Why? Because I am an end-user. I need it to work. so I can work. I did love Elive on E17 - beautiful and interconnected and powerful...but that's not coming back - its not 64bit. And until I can actually work on E24...here is where I will stay. So, I am most grateful for any work done to maintain or improve this version with E16. Many thanks.

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maybe we need a specific thread for this "vision", as I may suggest a few points:

  • since e16 already lacks a few possible features, could be good to turn that version into a quite more light version (like replacing thunar by pcmanfm which is much lighter), using gtk2 apps instead of gtk3 (lighter), etc... but i wonder how much worth is this since browsers already bloat the hell out :thinking: or maybe just using palemoon as default :thinking: , so basically, making the version very optimized for lightness
  • the builded iso can be quite light (with less software), and the installer allowing to install extra ones
  • more personalized and special, more geek, more different
  • retro style sounds good, and is an "attraction" for those will look at it
  • selection of more special & unique software to use, if you check the old elive "history" versions you can found strange apps like evidence, the mail gadget in the desktop the old entice image-viewer, etc...
  • alsa instead of pulseaudio? (lighter in resources, stills compatible, maybe some apps requires pulseaudio, which is easier to manage and also you can connect bluetooth speaker easier)
  • systemd removed? (we don't really need this, can be very annoying / hard to set up but could be a good option for those searching a retro system, in the end removing systemd doesn't improve your system in lightness)

Ok, that's my biggest concern, if do it like a special version or like a different distro fork :thinking: its not easy to include that "special version" in the elive website without creating confusion (or maybe we can! and everything will be much easier), but as a fork everything is more work (new website? different subscribers to be notified? etc...), maybe a domain like e16.elivelinux.org or retro.elivelinux.org (i think we need a name first, @triantares suggested EliveRetro, sounds more coherent and keeping the elive concept & name, what about Relive? or something quite different :thinking:

I think we can even use these words for a "testimonial" entry on e16 :happy: :applause:

I think this is a good way to define the version 3.0 with E17 :thinking: "interconnected"

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I think you are "over killing" here.

  • My idea would be to offer current E16, maybe offer a tad more geekiness by allowing different setups/layouts by simply clicking a choice ...... currently, one simply doesn't have a choice i.e it's the default desktop or none.

  • Retro style also means (as is the gist of Jack Wallens' article) that you want freedom to customize or even are animated to do so.

  • Going back to alsa would cripple a lot of audio aspects .... so that's a dangerous path.

  • For a non-systemd experience, I don't think retro is not the right name. :smile_cat:
    On top it deviates too much from the main Elive line ..... so that would be a whole different fork/distro i.e combining retro and non-systemd is a bad idea IMO.

A special version in the sense that it's a specially stylized version of E16 at that moment .... a frozen moment in development (snapshot) with a specialized desktop.
Offered for free as a token to show the world where we are at and that there is more to come... it's PR. :nod:

So in fact it wouldn't need a specific or different web-page. A sub page explaining the special features as well as the level of development at that moment would be quite sufficient ..... :madness:
It would be Elive as it is in 2021 only available as that version (apug should still work, though) with only E16.
So all in all not that different from what's being offered in Beta albeit with a tad more care for appearances and an extra layer of geekiness.
No reason at all to deviate from the mainline.

To be clear:

I offered this option to garner more media attention and simultaneously try out what the effect of a free (quick) download would be, whilst not interfering with the current strategy.
Offering a retro snapshot for totally free (like via a torrent that I would be happy to seed) would at the least silence all those fretting about the donation and at best garner more users with whom to interact.

Elive direly needs to be talked about again. :thinking:

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what you mean? a selector like "night / light" themes in old versions of elive?

I assume everything is already this way? :thinking: tell me any suggestions

about the other points, yeah and systemd it not worth, pulseaudio... well at least the installer offers to switch to alsa (it should work quite well, betatesters can try to install with alsa :slight_smile: )

  • for that we should plan a good media strategy :slight_smile:
  • email issues needs to be all fixed (improving well) if we want to announce a newsletter about that (but again, we need a good media strategy to use with)
  • it has been around 2 weeks that the downloads are without delayed-mode because of the email issues, but the difference of downloads is not so big

a torrent sounds good to share this (more)free version, since is more like a snapshoted state, its also data-reliable (unlike broken downloads that the stupid browsers don't know how to detect)

i think that's quite difficult, just like trolls (i mean, they are trolls(?)) they will not stop complaining :rofl2:

the only good thing about bad-talking is that at least is -talking-, @TheTechRobo discovered elive because of the so-so bad review of that youtube guy if im not wrong (lol)

i think the key for that is the geekyness :slight_smile: so a very geeky/special version could be good for it

The most geek linux ever made

tadaaaaaa

removing systemd was meant to be lighter, but in the end is not (or not -so- much, not noticeable), by other side it can affect to dependencies... removing pulseaudio is 30-40 mb less of ram, the thing about systemd is that is against the unix philosophy and worries about security :thinking: , but in any of the cases seems to be the future nomatterwhat

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Not only that but also choice in what panel (if at all) i.e cairo-dock, plank or tint2......with at least a desktop configuration choice through small screenshots to make clear what they look like.

Like showing/offering a different pager positioning, themes, the effect of panel or bar choice, etc, etc ......... so simply having 3 or 4 ready made Desktop customizations from which to start of from.

Like the propositions above i.e a pre-configurated choice (default: cairo, minimal: tint2, alternative: plank) to start off from and maybe pointers or Howtos to do more personal stuff. E16 isn't that easy after all.

Yes, but we'll need to anounce that big time to have an effect

And after that zsync to get newer versions. :slight_smile:

No, they will not stop complaining but at least now we could tell them to bugger off and go and download the free Retro Snapshot.
Making it clearer that donations serve as support for development and sustainability of Elive.

Or

Elive Retro! Geekiness like in the old days.

Come customize your very personal desktop and show it off.

For the showing off we'd need an extra (web)page ...... somewhat like the screenshots page (if it works) and allow for additional comments on how something was done.
Or a special category here on the forums but that would require joining. :smile_cat:

As a distro Elive then would be a real user oriented offer not by defaulting to "dumbed down" (so called user friendly) but by giving the user choice and the tools to play around with.... and actually promoting that.
With a bit of luck there's some inspiration to be had there. :thinking:

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Could be good to have a "how to use E16" howto, let's say like a 20 pages book, with all the things that any user can need from a "linux desktop" with a nice TOC, like:

  • Intro
    • elements on desktop
    • hotkeys
  • How to setup things
    • autostart applications
    • wallpapers
    • remember your apps
  • Configurations
    • pager options
    • etc...

Then, how to create this GUIDE? good question... I suggest the best will be to start writing it here (yes in the forum, since uses markdown and everything is so easy to write, but maybe could be good to install a plugin for that -extensive-documentation- need), so the forum is the most handy place to do that, and features things like: publicly available to everyone in the world searching for E16 guide which will also tell about how good things are already set-up in elive, SEO, updated documentation, ebooks/pdf can be generated from the Markdown code / plugins, multi-user & collaborative editing

Im not convinced that this is is a "so" good idea :thinking: i mean, a troll will stink forever, allowing them to "try instead of complain" is like opening the doors to them and waiting for the next complain, IMHO is just better to get rid of the toxic leechers, or kill them with :runningfast: :fire: :hot: :fire: :runningfast:

I like it :slight_smile:

And just like the idea of the GUIDE, maybe we can also use this forum (special private sections) to write the pages and use for them the best wording, include images, etc :slight_smile: when everything is done, the contents can be "fetch" to make the real website page

yeah we can use something like "see this screenshot, see this possibility, enter in the privileged forum by just joining it" (engaging cost-free action)

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Yeah, doing it in wiki-format will do the trick, I think. The forum is very apt for that.

tiddlywiki is interesting too. The current E16 documentation runs on it but personally I wasn't very successful in setting up a nice offline version. :slightly_frowning_face:

I have some serious doubts if the world is looking for just that, but an Elive-E16 might just cause some changes. :smile_cat:

Aye, it can be but generally the result as PDF isn't staggering and..... (linked) pictures get to be a problem.
EPUB I haven't tried yet but I have generated stuff as static HTML which also needs quite a bit of cleaning up and going over the layout.....all depends on which markdown flavour one uses. :thinking:

Anyway, markdown may not be perfect but offers the most in compatibility and thus collaboration ...... albeit I suspect it'll be down to a mere handful of us contributing. :face_with_head_bandage:

I'm in! :madness:

check my last comment that I did in a staff thread

yeah we can reference that theming guide in our guide too :slight_smile:

I think the best is to create in a collaborative way a huge TOC (sections), organize them, include all the ones that we need, etc... and then when we have it (i dont know how to do this in a collaborative way), start writting it down all the sections

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I propose separating it into a -lot- of howtos and creating a "landing page howto" ?

This sounds like a huge amount of work, I'd be crazy to attempt it.

So count me in. :madness:

It's an incredible lot of work and wont be finished before years end, that's for sure!
...... one would almost think @Thanatermesis is trying to put us 2 on ice so he can procrastinate releasing Retro. :thinking:

Anyway .... let's just start it up and take it day by day, step by step. :work:

Thinking about start ups, all the stuff I've started (sort of) in relation to Elive and never got round to finishing:

  • Elive welcome widget
  • Documenting live booting (sort of finished that)
  • light-GTK-theme (e16)
  • E24 theming
  • Elive & E16 on arm64 Bullseye(pinebookpro)
  • Icon set for customized Elive
  • beautified log-out widget
  • webkit widgets
  • alternate logos
  • Wikipedia entry (nonono! never again!)
  • create zsync-curl widget (thetechrobo sort of finished that)
  • and last: Write a Howto on customizing E16 ( what's there, might be useful for the documentation)

Not counting the stuff I wanted or proposed to start ..... but never did. :face_with_head_bandage:

So you could say I'm experienced in firing up lost causes. :dance:

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Yeah, but it's not that good. Im planning on doing a major rewrite, based on the youtube-dl-gui code, once I change youtube-dl-gui to a nicer gui toolkit.

A good thing is that E16 is "maintained" i.e not under construction any more.
Documenting a moving target is really frustrating ..... it's outdated before you even finished it. :slightly_frowning_face:

It's only a wrapper around the command but has to feel like it's a program of it's own and if possible be a tad pretty too.
If possible, try to add some of the "Options" like "rate limit", "video format" and/or "target directory"