How to update your Elive, the correct way

[maxinou]

@maxinou

Have a look what @maxinou wrote lately, please

Yes, tomorrow I'll try to give you all my contribution (at least my point of view to discuss together).

Here you have it:

https://forum.elivelinux.org/t/elives-health-foundation-funny-donation-campaigns-work-in-progresss/477/20?u=maxinou

@triantares

I want to think, that I could help you out with being lost?

The whole topic is (KISS):
Does Elive go on as it always did or do we try something more audacious?

It seems as if the time (and support) is right to, now to get some funding and a serious try at being the next top distro ..... seeing Ubuntu is going down and prolly dragging all its derivates with it.
We're a small group but very dedicated if given the room to operate.

I agree, is a good moment to make the train goes faster

@triantares

The only other way to create a hands-on experience is to have an instance of Elive running in the browser ....... like Ulteo ran in the browser is an option but that's a lot of work too.

Take a look, we should use this website to show 3.0 and future releases:

Elive online boot tester website

I just found this on internet, it is really cool! you can boot the system directly from the browser like a virtual machine (of course much slower and less featured, but stills cool) https://distrotest.net/?module=systems&submodule=run&id=287631

And even we can send them an ISO of 3.0 with a wallpaper that says that 4.0 in 64 and 32 bits is coming soon?

@triantares

Agreed. The sole function of the website is to showcase/sell Elive. Fullstop.
One downside is that every site that wants to sell a product over-hypes its qualities .... leaving the client/user/customer only 2 choices:

1. Find a trusted reviewer and see what they have to say about the product (Elive in this case)
2. Download, test and see hands-on for yourself if it's as good as the site claims.

Either way there is a big need for Elive to showcase itself once it is up and running. So as to entice the future user as well as get good reviews. It is the difference between success and failure.
The number of downloads is not a measure of success, downloaders that stay as Elive users are what it's about. Again: The hands-on experience is what makes them stay or go away.

I agree completely, in website we read a lot of amazing features, but we doesn't know them until we tested OS, so we should shows public them in a long term continuous travel i.e: with a weekly small animated gif showing one of those features in tweeter, facebook, linkedin with # that would be catch-people like #buster better than #debian10 (or both together)

@triantares

The proposal is to make changes to Elive to pull in larger numbers of (hopefully paying) users and/or financial support from other sources. The first impression Elive makes at boot up, is crucial.
If you only keep doing what you have been doing over the last years, nothing will change and Elive will still be considered a fringe distro.

I still agree, and only showing all trics that Elive has inside (that are almost unknown for us, what is a problem, because a lot of @Thanatermesis work is not known even by us, so time and effort "spent" for nothing, that is a pity) we can start a nice communication campaign.

@Thanatermesis

Can we define "differently" ?

I prefer to use the word "continuous improvements", which in the end is the same goal, "differently" is a more complex idea that includes risk and an unknown "paused" state. "continuous development" is what we always did with Elive (everytime new features, improving things like website when its needed, adding a functionality when its a good time, etc...)

For example, the actual plan is:

Yes, I think that @triantares mains also "continuous improvements", not an opposite and different way, I think that team doesn't maybe never start because they (we) doesn't know what we can do (or better we can't do) to make publicity of your work, is so I proposed in the dedicated thread that you @Thanatermesis gives the "tempo" to a single team coordinator (by "tempo" I mean what we can / cannot write and when made the announcements as your works progress) I think if people doesn't still reacts is because we doesn't make a communication mistake, or write wrongs informations, that will not be the case with someone (and only one people) that makes the bridge between you and ours.

Your plan is good (if there are 300 people a day who visit the website is very good) but I'll add also as much as social networks we (the team) can manage + the website.

@Thanatermesis

Now, about "collaborative team", everybody can help in what he / she wants, for now we have sections in Get Involved where ideas / strategies / requirements are listed or we can add more, that's an easy way to allow anybody to help

Is so I proposed those actions there:

https://forum.elivelinux.org/t/elives-health-foundation-funny-donation-campaigns-work-in-progresss/477/20?u=maxinou

@Thanatermesis

In short "differently" should be a simply synonym of "improvement", and this should be the case for any option / idea, which can happen in any moment and for any case, but of course only if it is "worth" to do it, for example considering aspects like:

• how much is the cost to reach the goal? (investment of time, effort, etc...)
• how much "we need that" ?
• how much this improves Elive / X?
• do we have bigger priorities / needs first?
• do we have more urgent tasks?
• is there a diferent (easier / optimal) methods to reach the same goal?
• etc

Note: do we should add that "plan list" somewhere in the forum to have a clear vision / follow of the progress? @yoda @Rebel450 @triantares @maxinou

Yes, IMHO this plan list is very well done, and very well worked, I think there will be a private thread to develop / add features if necessary and another private thread (or a private sub-forum with several threads) where this team that will be created from now will start to work into different subjects like skills available, task assign, dates to publish (i.e. all Wednesday night and all Friday night GMT) in order that anyone will organise his time tho be ready all weeks (or almost) to have their weekly task finished for this moment, etc..

@Thanatermesis

its also important to know "what we want to reach", for elive, i don't think elive want's to be the next ubuntu , ubuntu is known as a system full of novice users (too much) who doesn't learns much (stays novice), an unstable system (upgrade and it wont boot again), a distro focused on enterprises and giving support (elive is not actually on that topic, and probably wont be).

So could be good to define a few goals maybe? elive is more like a generic distro focused on end users, giving an alternative system which aims to be better, filling all the needs (generically), and much friendlier & easy to use

Is one of the first things to know / define, and we doesn't stop to think "Elive will not be the next XXX", because, why not? It has much better features and stability than much other Linux distros, so we'll never will be bigger if we don't think bigger and now is a moment as good as another, so why not now?

Together we can do it, and you're not alone, the only thing we need is to coordinate ourselves

@Thanatermesis

first step: we will need a well structured big list of WOW's and their rate

Yes, and with this big list we can show everywhere at social networks a feature or two by week (with an animated gif capturing screen)

Also we should try to make a PDF users book that describes and explain all unknown features Elive has inside

@Thanatermesis

I have nothing against that when do we start? lol

This is the spirit, let's start now!!!

@triantares

Also included (another tab?) the PDFs and links to the site ..... and very important: showcase keira the xchat bot as a help function.

As I wrote in the thread of Elive funds, other distros put themselves some links into desktop pointing to their FAQ / help / manual / forums as XChat does in Elive 3.0, so yes, we should talk about keyra to shows that she is here to help users in a nostalgic and beautiful IRC channel

[Franc]

Hello!

A good thing should be to respect a rule in the treads titles and messages; It moves, that's nice, but (for me) seems a bit erratic...

For my personal use, the next WOW aside 64bits should be Nvidia+cuda; E16, 17, 22, xx comes after, even if I prefer testing E22...

One point is that only @Thanatermesis knows all of Elive and it would be interesting to have a .pdf handbook &/or a wiki part in the website (or beside it)... I read somewhere a message from @yoda about a "big book" / "Bible" of Elive, but can't figure out to find it! Am I blind? Should have a website link in /Support or /Docs..!

Terminology, I feel, have to be more shown: Even if I'm not a shell specialist, this one have so many improvements comparing to others, that even icons fanatics may find an even occasional interest on it!
.
.
.

Salutations!

[Thanatermesis]

@triantares

Where did you hide the "elpanel" code?

i dont even know if i still have it, and on such case, i dont even think that it compiles lol (10 years old)

@triantares

What exactly is "bkp" used for? Merging source code locally?

its an extremely handy and useful backup tool made by elive, maybe the most useful tool ever made, i use it all the time and cannot live without it anymore:

• try this: create a dir, copy a file here
• run "bkp save"
• do modifications
• run "bkp save"
• delete all the files "omg! what i did?"
• run "bkp get" and you have the files recovered from the last copy
• run "bkp get 2" and you get the second-oldest backup

you can use it to create diff (patches) in specific directories too, or compare visually what changed (meld), on which you can also import specific changes

example1:

• cd .e16
• bkp save
• do a setting change in e16 confs
• bkp diff

you see what exact conf has changed on the files

example2:

• download a source code
• run "bkp work"
• so you enter in a temporal copy on which you can play with the code, so building the source code will generate a ton of files that are not originally from the source code
• after you finished, logout from the terminal and the temporal state is removed (if you want to remove it), or you have the option to meld (merge visually) the changes into the original untouched code

example3:

• run "bkp save" of specific directories that you want to keep a copy from time to time, bkp saves in ~/.cache dir

this is one of the features that must be documented (showcase in the website , section features) , and like said, is probably the most useful one ever made! @yoda @Rebel450

[Thanatermesis]

@triantares

Done that .... I think it merged automagically.

i dont think so for security you cannot change the code of other's projects, but i should have received some notification (or pull request), i dont see anything... do you have any link ?

@triantares

Shall I continue with elive-welcome as it is or is it going to change completely?

elive-welcome is a nice code to do a panel control easily and fast, but i dont think that we would use it it was removed in the past because it simply was "useless"

[triantares]

@Thanatermesis

this is one of the features that must be documented (showcase in the website , section features) , and like said, is probably the most useful one ever made! @yoda @Rebel450

I fully agree.
Earlier today I ran "bkp s" in my $HOME to see what it does.
To my surprise it singled out all the directories containing source code (and and some logs) mentioning possible problems there.

Hence my question.

It also shows exactly what I mean. An incredible feature hidden away in some corner. No one knows it's there except the developer. It needs to be easily available.

Finding all the intricacies of Elive is almost like an old (text) game along the lines of "Dungeon".

@Thanatermesis

i dont see anything... do you have any link ?

triantares:

Not sure how the pull request works. Every time I want create one, the page says no difference. .. But there is,
Tried again and somehow I got it right, this time ---- I think.

triantares/elive-welcome/blob/patch-1/tree/usr/lib/elive-welcome/elive-welcome.py

@Thanatermesis

it was removed in the past because it simply was "useless"

OK, so maybe we can revamp it into something useful.
Me, I'd start with using Gtk.notebook() to get tabs and split up functionality.

[Thanatermesis]

@Franc

One point is that only @Thanatermesis knows all of Elive and it would be interesting to have a .pdf handbook &/or a wiki part in the website (or beside it)... I read somewhere a message from @yoda about a "big book" / "Bible" of Elive, but can't figure out to find it! Am I blind? Should have a website link in /Support or /Docs..!

there's already a very old one shipped in Elive, check the documents dir

but also, a pdf is not a very good idea, because:

• users don't read
• better to make everything on the website, since users don't needs to download the pdf or the system in order to see it, a website is publicly available directly and have a much bigger impact
• website can also generate a pdf version
• information can be always updated and / or fixed if needed
• can include translations
• features SEO (very important)

[Thanatermesis]

@triantares

It also shows exactly what I mean. An incredible feature hidden away in some corner. No one knows it's there except the developer. It needs to be easily available.

yeah, these features needs to be shown like many others, that's the next major goal / requirement for elive, in fact it was even in more priority than starting to work on 64bit updated versions (without a good showcased website, there will not be users)

@triantares

OK, so maybe we can revamp it into something useful.

it was not useful because the included things where already included in the system (like in the menus)

the problem of gtk apps is not they are useful, in fact they are very useful, the problem (if we can call it problem) is that it doesn't shows any amazingness (but it shows the features, which are, hum..)

[triantares]

@Thanatermesis

without a good showcased website, there will not be users)

I think you put too much faith in only the website.
yes, it can lure new users but if they don't stay or are disappointed because they can find no features that distinguish Elive from the others ....... All will have been to no avail

@Thanatermesis

already included in the system (like in the menus)

We need a "welcome" that also includes links to specific parts of the site on the first tab. Like the forum, docs, tutorials and screenshots. Other tab for system options like Elive-skel, ugrading/repairing, bkp, i.e specific elive goodies showcase.
And maybe a tab for documentation where you can click on the item and directly open a nice tuto (with pics) or video without having to search for it on the net or the website.... or even having a connection up and running.

We don't want a newcomer doubting his choice ..... au contraire.

The Clash - Should I Stay or Should I Go (Official Audio)

[yoda]

You just made me remember I liked this song LOL

Several well adopted distros, first thing you see once installed, is some window that pop up with :

• important links (forums, chat, etc)
• tutorial link
• FAQ
  etc

[Thanatermesis]

@triantares

I think you put too much faith in only the website.

its all about numbers
im not a fan of websites, even less to work on them (you can see, its not a best one), but knowing these approximate numbers:

1. 300-400 visits per day
2. 20-30 downloads per day
3. 1 donation per day

we can perfectly know that:

• if we improve "1", we will increase "2" (which will increase 3, of course)
• if we remove point "2", we increase point "3" (that's not possible, but it means "remove interferences / difficulties to reach every next step and you will increase the next step numbers.. so, UX)

@triantares

yes , it can lure new users but if they don't stay or are disappointed because they can find no features that distinguish Elive from the others ....... All will have been to no avail

of course! but the problem we actually have is exactly the opposite, i see it in this way:

• normal users or "distro-hoopers" comes to the site, makes a little look to it, and leaves the site. Why?
  • they looks at the screenshots / videos, if they are not convinced by the look they leaves (they are just curiositing the distro)
  • they looks at the features, if they are not convinced about something special or worth they will leave the site
  • that's basically because something pretty simple: they will not spend / invest more time downloading and seeing it in real if they don't fint worth the effort

and so, just in the inverse way, we have actually many features (even if the public may probably know only the 10% of them, if they are used to the system), so our problem is in the presentation

we need to generate, since the first moment (user enters in website) a feel like:

"hey! this is an amazing distro like no other, the only one which will make you stay!"

@triantares

We need a "welcome" that also includes links to specific parts of the site on the first tab...

My actual idea is to add a new menu called Features, with a ton (20-30) sub-entries (this is called mega-menu in websites) for each "special feature", this can be good to the users to search a specific feature and see that there's a lot, and then, create a new homepage with a small summary for each section (like a 1/4 of the page talking in sizes, includes just a few words and animated images, with a "read more" link)

that should be more easy to develop, progressive, and without require changes in the future

@yoda

Several well adopted distros, first thing you see once installed, is some window that pop up with :

that sounds very like including the elive-welcome panel in the first-desktop-creation moment

[yoda]

@Thanatermesis

My actual idea is to add a new menu called Features, with a ton (20-30) sub-entries (this is called mega-menu in websites) for each "special feature", this can be good to the users to search a specific feature and see that there's a lot, and then , create a new homepage with a small summary for each section (like a 1/4 of the page talking in sizes, includes just a few words and animated images, with a "read more" link)

I like that
So a super menu with all special features that if you click on it, bring to some some webpage on ELive site with a sentence and an animated gif ( very simple)

Never saw that before but do like it

[triantares]

@Thanatermesis

so our problem is in the presentation

we need to generate, since the first moment (user enters in website) a feel like:

All very true but the distro eventually will have to deliver what is promised in a transparent way.

@Thanatermesis

add a new menu called Features
that should be more easy to develop, progressive, and without require changes in the future

Sounds good and aligns along with what I had in mind too.
Using webkit inside widgets/windows might be just the tool to do that.

[Rebel450]

@Thanatermesis

they looks at the features, if they are not convinced about something

You see the things from the perspective of a person who knows what is hidden under the skirt of Elive - and so it is hard for you to look on the things from the point of the users view.
You just miss one simple point why many people switch away after a short overview ...
Their RAM will not recognized by the 32bit system.
Of course there are a lot of distro hoppers, may be curious for Enlightenment on Debian.
But users who are willing to donate are expecting more than hidden, or better, hard to discover - features under the hood.
Next possible Szenario:
They give it a spin - and stumble and fall over the DE which isn't any perfect and leave.
Only just some agree with the situation,
these are we.

The website....
All distros say, they are somehow the best.

We have to improve that it is true in the case Elive.

[triantares]

@Rebel450

The website....
All distros say, they are somehow the best.

All paint cans I buy for my ship, tell me that they are the best and that I will never need anything else again for years. Reality is that the next winter, rust starts coming through requiring me to re-apply the whole shebang.

Loads and loads of bullshit ....... believe me !

I started off studying graphical design and advertising ... the first thing we were taught:
The phrase "Lie like it's printed" is very true. If it's plausible and looks good ... and printed/publicized ... every one will accept it.

[Rebel450]

True.
Mhm... from graphics designer to sweetwater Captain,
should it make me think ....

No, no all ok am just teasing you a bit

[triantares]

@Rebel450

Mhm... from graphics designer to sweetwater Captain,
should it make me think ....

Never finished design/advertising ... moved over to art and painting in general.

The general thing is romanticism.

[Thanatermesis]

@triantares

All very true but the distro eventually will have to deliver what is promised in a transparent way.

well, all that is (should be) in the OS itself so the presentation just shows what's included

@triantares

Using webkit inside widgets/windows might be just the tool to do that.

not sure to understand what you exactly mean, do you have any demo or youtube link?

@Rebel450

Their RAM will not recognized by the 32bit system.

hum! that should be warned for these cases ... DONE!

Warning: This OS is 32bit, the RAM memory is limited to 3,5GB. We recommend you to use the 64bit version of Elive instead.

@Rebel450

They give it a spin - and stumble and fall over the DE which isn't any perfect and leave.

if you talk about e16 (which i assume you are), that should be clearly stated in the download page, and also saying that to have a better experience, use the stable version

@Rebel450

The website....
All distros say, they are somehow the best.

yeah... but i don't want to say it is the best (today's there's a ton of crap saying this, just like "books" with false promises about how amazing they are, repeating "you are going to discover..." until the end of the book and then, what? it finished?)... I want to prooooooF it with these "features" pages

@triantares

The phrase "Lie like it's printed" is very true. If it's plausible and looks good ... and printed/publicized ... every one will accept it.

this is sadly true, by simply saying "the best os you'll ever seen" (without anything more than this sentence, in big letters, and a download button", simply works... but i don't like it... not my style / taste

[TheTechRobo]

@triantares

Where did you hide the "elpanel" code?

I'd look on dev.elivecd.org

@Thanatermesis

the tool could be improved by merging changes, but thats much more complex to develop

Hmm...I think in some thread I suggested using git to store the changes and merging the changes automagically... I can't find it though

@Thanatermesis

make the website to include the Features section showing the Elive nicenesses

This would be great for a project that people can contribute to...but if i'm correct the wordpress site on svn hasn't been updated in ages...maybe we could like do a concept on a google doc??

@Thanatermesis

• try this: create a dir, copy a file here
• run "bkp save"
• do modifications
• run "bkp save"
• delete all the files "omg! what i did?"
• run "bkp get" and you have the files recovered from the last copy
• run "bkp get 2" and you get the second-oldest backup

Seems a LOT like git...

@triantares

no difference

Try looking for a "patch-1" branch...though I assume it's probably resolved by now

@Thanatermesis

Warning: This OS is 32bit, the RAM memory is limited to 3,5GB.

Is it not 2.8GB?

Also...92 replies is a lot...should posts be moved/deleted? Most posts on here are not about how to update your Elive, the correct way.